Drucker and Me
Podcast #32 — Aired June 19, 2014

“When people share a common and compelling vision, anything can happen.” This week on BetterWorldians Radio we’re talking about finding your life’s calling and creating a legacy that changes lives. Our guest this week is successful entrepreneur Bob Buford, the author of Drucker & Me. He’ll talk about his friendship with the Father of Modern Management and Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, Peter Drucker. Tune in every week to hear new guests share how they are making the world a better place and to learn how you can become a BetterWorldian!

 

 

Donate $5 to Support our Podcast!

 

 Prev Episode Next Episode

Sign Up for New Shows & Updates!

Bob Buford
Author, Drucker & Me
Founder, Halftime Institute

Until the sale of his company in July 1999, Bob Buford served as Chairman of the Board and CEO of Buford Television, Inc., a family-owned business that started with a single ABC affiliate in Tyler, Texas, and grew to a network of cable systems across the country. In 1994, Buford wrote Halftime, a book that came out of his mind and heart on how to find meaning and fulfillment in the second half of our lives. In 1997, Bob launched the Halftime organization, an initiative of Leadership Network to help successful people convert their faith into action and effective results. The mission of Halftime is to develop strategy and resources to equip business/professional leaders to achieve maximum leverage and return on the investment of their time and resources measured in changed lives and healthier communities. Bob is a graduate of the University of Texas at Austin and of the Owner Managed Program at Harvard.

Episode Transcript

Raymond Hansell
Joining us today is Bob Buford, the author of Drucker and Me. Until the sale of his company in July 1999, Bob Buford served as Chairman and CEO of Buford Television, Inc., a family-owned business that started with a single ABC affiliate in Tyler, Texas, and grew it to a network of cable systems across the country. In 1994, Bob Buford wrote Halftime, a book that came out of his mind and heart on how to find meaning and fulfillment in the second half of our lives. In 1997, Bob launched the Halftime organization, an initiative of Leadership Network to help successful people convert their faith into action and effective results. The mission of Halftime is to develop strategies and resources to equip businesses and professional leaders to achieve maximum leverage and return on the investment of their time and resources measured in changed lives and healthier communities. Incidentally, Bob is a graduate of the University of Texas at Austin and of the Owner Management Program at Harvard. We'll be talking today with Bob about his close 23 year plus personal relationship and business relationship with the famous Peter Drucker and many of the insights that emerged from that friendship. Bob, it's great to have you with us today on BetterWorldians Radio. Welcome and thank you for joining us.

Bob
Well, it sounds like we share quite a few values as well and that's a good place to start.

Raymond Hansell
Well, that is indeed. As we had said to you a few minutes ago, we've all read your book. I would recommend it to all of our guests and immersed ourselves in it and we just can't wait to get underway. So I'd like to start my first question really by asking you for the benefit of our listeners really, tell us a little bit about Peter Drucker and how did you first become a fan of his?

Bob
Well, Peter Drucker is widely known as the Father of Modern Management. His mission in life sounds a lot like yours which is to produce a functioning society. Now I'll give you a second to chew on that one. But he's worked on it all his life. He came from Vienna where Hitler had actually burned two of his books publically so he was wise enough to change his address to London instead of to some -- anyway -- that to Hitler. And he has written I think it's 39 books and 10,000 book pages according to my friend, Jim Collins. And he pretty much laid out the architecture for what we now take for granted which is management. In terms of me, I was 32 years old and have read most of Peter's writing and read everybody else that I could get my hands on. And I just set the others aside and did what Peter told me to do the rest of my life.

Raymond Hansell
And what inspired you actually to reach out to Peter for the first time and what was your hope in spending some time with him?

Bob
Well, I had a big ambition for my secular company which was television and cable television. But all along I had an ambition to serve my father in heaven and Peter, I thought, was the one person that could help me most and to me, Peter was like meeting the Wizard of Oz or something if you're me. And I was intimidated for all of half an hour at which time he made me very comfortable and we began a 25 year relationship and he allowed me to tape record with a little Sony cassette recorder that worked every time, every word we said verbatim. And that's a lot of what's in the book. The book is more about a relationship between two people that had common values and wanted to -- well, just get the most done in our lifetime and we got a lot done.

Raymond Hansell
Now you had a lot of differences, but you just mentioned common values. Can you talk a little about the common values and the common missions that you shared with Peter?

Bob
Well, Peter started everything with three questions and his three questions were; who is the customer, what does the customer consider value, and therefore, what's our business. And he used to also say all results are on the outside and on the inside is only cost and effort. That's a very different point of view on business and because people used to, before management, they used to know what their roles were and where they were going to go on Tuesday morning for work. But not this whole system that Peter originated and many others have read books on it since.

Raymond Hansell
Mm-hmm. Now you were mentored by him effectively. Tell us a little bit about what mentoring meant for you.

Bob
To me, it meant everything in the world because it elevated my sights. Peter did four things that were really big to me. One was and I think that they're very important in mentoring generally. One was that he saluted and gave permission for me to be me. He was dedicated to more questions and my furnishing lots of answers and connecting him to other people. Maybe the easiest way to say his part is for me to talk about a letter that I got after Peter's 90th birthday. We had a big celebration at The Getty Center near Los Angeles. And I want to read this letter, if you'd allow me, and the point of doing so is to say that mentoring is a two-way street. The mentor has got to get something out of it, too, or the relationship doesn't stick. So here's what the letter said. He said, Dear Linda, that's my wife. Dear Bob, this is a half-page letter of thanks not only for your lovely flowers, you know, kind of a conventional thing to say, but for all you've done to make these last two weeks of extended birthday celebrations a glorious event for both Doris and me. But above all, this is a letter of profound thanks for what you, Bob, have done for me and for the third half of my life, the last 15 or so years. It is through you and your friendship that I've attained in my old age a new and significant sphere of inspiration of hope and effectiveness, the megachurches. You cannot possibly imagine how much this means and has meant to me and how profoundly it has affected my life. I owe you so very much for your generous willingness to let me take a small part in your tremendously important work. I can't even begin to tell you what your confidence in me and your friendship means and has meant for me. If I don't get another point across on mentoring, it is all packed in that letter where the mentor is one of the people gaining a benefit and being part of the team in a way.

Raymond Hansell
It's a two-way street. Now for our listeners who have not read the book and we certainly encourage you to do so, one of the things that came out in the book was that Peter Drucker's wife had said that you were probably his very best friend. In fact, in the book you mentioned that she said she actually had three -- that Peter had three best friends and they were Bob Buford, Bob Buford, and by the way, Bob Buford. So I think

Bob
Well, the reader of the book and all of you could confirm this from your reading, the last thing it is is a technical book. You know, you think management is a how-to kind of thing, but it's a book about two people separated by 30 years in age who had pretty much the same values and became really best friends. More than friends, really. I think what you can hope for or what I hope for is that anybody who reads the book will find is the story of a long and very devoted relationship with two people who had a lot of the same values. If I could hope for anything, it would be personified by the nicest compliment I've gotten in a way which was a week old. Linda and I eat at the same restaurant every weekend most of the time. And it's run by a man who migrated from South Africa and he came by the table which he doesn't very often and I could tell he had something on his mind. And what he said to me I hadn't heard it said this way, but it's what I was up to, so to speak. He said, "The first two chapters of your book -- I read your book and all the succeeding chapters after that I read my book," and it was like the experience of he being able to speak to Peter Drucker. And I was kind of the --

Raymond Hansell
Go between?

Bob
The surrogate, I'd guess you day.

Raymond Hansell
Yeah. Well, that's really interesting that you provided a window into that conversation between the reader and Peter Drucker and I think that's amazing because I also had that same experience and I think we all did. We sort of walked through that mirror, that window and saw yourself in that same situation. So we're going to take a brief break right now, but we'll be back shortly to talk more with Bob Buford and our co-host, MarySue. In the meantime, I'd like to offer this challenge to our listeners. If you know someone whose acts no matter how small are making a difference in the lives of other people, boy, we'd love to hear about them. Please send us an email at radio@betterworldians.com. We'll be right back. [MUSIC] >> Scarecrow to Dorothy, come in, Dorothy. This summer I can't believe it, Toto. We're really back in Oz. The battle for Oz begins. An evil jester is threatening Oz and you are the only one who can help us. On May 9th, get ready for action. Come on. Ready the catapult. Fire! Adventure. Lion, lion, coming through. And monkey business. Uh, I don't speak monkey. Legends of Oz starts May 9th. Rated PG. Parent guidance suggested. [MUSIC] >> How can we make it a better world? >> I think we can make it a better world if we had peace among each other. >> Everybody needs to help their neighbor and then we'll spread from then on. >> I should do more. >> I can do more. >> I spend so much time on Facebook. >> How much time do I spend on Facebook? >> Probably more than I should be spending. >> I would definitely give back if I could find the time. >> Now you can help others just by playing a game on Facebook. It's called A Better World. Share your hopes and dreams. Do good deeds. Make a difference and have fun. Become a BetterWorldian. Join a community where all deeds get rewarded. Log in today to find out how you can make a difference every day. >> For more information, visit Facebook.com\ABetterWorld. [MUSIC] >> This is BetterWorldians Radio with a family team of Ray, MarySue, and Gregory Hansell. To connect with the show today, please call us at 1-866-472-5788. That's 1-866-472-5788. You may also send us an email to radio@betterworldians.com. Now, back to BetterWorldians Radio.

Bob
Thank you.

MarySue Hansell
Well, hi, Bob. Glad to have you back. As your relationship with Peter grew, you worked through what you called your halftime. Can you tell us what that was?

Bob
I was basically making the change that I describe in Halftime, the book, from success to significance as a modus operandi of my life. I had been at work for, well, the better part of 20 years and interestingly enough Peter Drucker had written at this time all of his major books. And we were kind of kindred souls in that both of us wanted to do the best we could for other people. And I happened to choose to help churches grow; basically grow the scale of the church up to the scale of the need. Most churches are maintenance almost by definition. And so we found a group of great entrepreneurs led by Bill Hybels and Rick Warren and quite a few other people and I founded Leadership Network whose mission is to find, what Peter called, the islands of the health and strength and to put them together and to teach one another how to change lives.

MarySue Hansell
Yeah, I saw that you asked Peter to help you with your mission to, you know, what you decided you wanted to help the megachurches. How did Peter help you with that mission?

Bob
Well, first of all, it took -- to get my specific mission right -- it took eight years. So I mean we didn't know nothing, but we couldn't say what I'm about to say. Peter and I were at the Biltmore Hotel before a conference that I had organized and he said something I'll never forget. He said, "Your mission is to transform the latent energy of American Christianity into active energy. And it sounds a lot when I hear you folks talk, that that's pretty close to what your -- skip the Christianity part -- but for the people you're trying to serve, that's what you're trying to achieve.

MarySue Hansell
Well, thank you. Yes, that's what we are trying to achieve. You know

Bob
And the way Peter said it, I think I said before, that his mission was to produce a functioning society. And there's been a recent survey that was taken in reference to the question, who do you trust? Thereabout, I guess there may be 10 different sectors, but the two sectors that are at the top are; number one is academia or their education, the second is their church and both of those are about 30 percent of people who said positively about that. The bottom one was government and they had a score of 2-1/2. There's a lot of work to be done and I think building the strength of churches and not for profit organizations like yours is critical to really the survival of the world that we live in.

MarySue Hansell
Yes. And we'd love to talk to you more about that. I think Greg's going to cover that when he gets to his section.

Bob
Mm-hmm.

MarySue Hansell
You know what I found very interesting in your book, Drucker and Me, that you talked about the big similarities between Rick Warren and Peter Drucker and how they focused on and valued the customer. Can you talk about what those similarities are and why they are so important?

Bob
Well, the values are basically discovering your own life and particularly the purpose in your life. And Rick Warren, of course, wrote a book called Purpose Driven Life.

MarySue Hansell
Mm-hmm.

Bob
Rick was also mentored maybe not as much as me, but quite a lot in all of this and he and Peter were of two minds and as I was, too. Anyway, he focused on helping people discover their purpose in life. So many people just live from day to day and don't pour themselves out to others. And Peter's way of saying it was, his three questions if you begin to think about what the purpose of your life is, like Rick said, are; the first question is who am I. And I think a lot of people, even people who are very intentional about their work and particularly when they come to Halftime, know their roles as a lawyer or as a construction worker or something like that. But they really don't know who they are individually. And the second question is where do I fit? What kind of context brings out the best in me that are your God-given gifts. And the third is what's my contribution? And I found I have kind of an s-curve on that and I found that I must have gone through maybe six transitions in my life. And I think most people will go through, you know, maybe four, five, six seasons of being --

MarySue Hansell
That's interesting.

Bob
-- a student and then being what you would call a warrior and then being a leader perhaps and all kinds of things like that.

MarySue Hansell
Yeah, I see that that's the mission of your organization, Halftime, and you also go into it in your book, Halftime. That, you know, in the old days it used to be people would only have one type of career. Now, since they're living so much longer, there's another whole life and that was an insight that Peter Drucker said that that was your insight. That you actually have two lives.

Bob
Well, I did actually. Well, I'd like to say this about that. My first life was to operate a very fast growing broadcast television and then cable television company. But my second life was to help -- well, I became the founding director of four different things; two just to help spread Peter's thinking just like I'm doing in this book that you've all read. I hope everybody will. But the other was building churches to scale and I may have said this; when we started 35 years ago, there was 600 churches in the United States with over a thousand attending and when you have a thousand attending, that does require management. One man can't do all the work. Anyway, there were 600 then and there's 6000 in the United States that serve congregations of that size today.

MarySue Hansell
Yeah, I think many people would be surprised to hear that. I know we see some of the big ones on TV, but I don't know that our listeners would guess that there'd be 6000 serving congregations of over a thousand.

Bob
And they basically are very entrepreneurial, but also very firm with their doctrine and things like that. I mean it's not Christianity light or something. And they just have a burning desire for growth and not just maintenance.

MarySue Hansell
Yeah, you know, I did want to ask you this question. Can you share -- I'm sure some of our listeners who were big followers of Peter Drucker would love to know what your favorite Druckerisms were and why you feel they're so important.

Bob
Well, I actually have personally, I've got a list of 10 and I'm not going to burden with that. But the

MarySue Hansell
Just the favorite favorites.

Bob
I'll get started on it. Anyway, all of this I learned from Peter and not all in one sitting, I can tell you that. It is across years. The first principle that he taught me is to build on the islands of health and strength. The second one was -- he told me one afternoon that you can spend the rest of your life working with people who are receptive to what your mission is and that's where you need to put yourself for the best results provided that they match who you are. Another one is work only on things that are trying to happen. We in Leadership Network and Halftime are not against anything. I mean we may insiders, but we don't critique what other people are doing. We just don't work with them if we're at odds. The other one that Drucker taught us is to say that the fruit of our work grows up on other people's trees. We really don't count what we do, how many conferences or meetings or things like that. We count what happens with the people we serve and aggregate that and that's pretty amazing.

MarySue Hansell
That is pretty amazing. You know, I like that Peter once told you that you can't set goals for other people. I thought that was a great thing to say because I think we all have a habit of trying to say, "Oh, I wish this for my son or my daughter or my friend," but what he said is you can only set goals for yourself, right?

Bob
That's right. He told Linda and I that one day over lunch and we were just, you know, going down this build the island of health and strength and that kind of thing. And I began to tell him what our goals were. And he just stopped me in my tracks on that and said, "Particularly with your children, you can't set goals for your children or your employees or much of anybody. They're going to live their life as they choose. What you can set goals on are the things you can do to help them realize their dreams."

MarySue Hansell
Well, I just have one or two minutes left and I wanted to ask you if you had one word to describe Peter Drucker, what would it be?

Bob
That's pretty easy. I'll give you some of your time back. The word would be genius.

MarySue Hansell
Whoo, okay.

Bob
He's one of those people that comes along maybe every 200 years. Peter is to management what William Shakespeare was to drama. They're both almost dealing with the same matter only Shakespeare's is 1600 or some odd and still it's about human nature more than anything else.

Raymond Hansell
Well, we're going to have to take another break at this point for our listeners, but we will be coming right back to talk more with Bob Buford and our co-host, Greg. We'll be right back. [MUSIC] >> Scarecrow to Dorothy. Come in Dorothy. This summer, I can't believe it Toto. We're really back in Oz. The battle for Oz begins. An evil jester is threatening Oz and you are the only one who can help us. On May 9th, get ready for action. Come on. Ready the candy poke. Fire! Adventure. Flying lion coming through. And monkey business. I don't speak monkey. Legends of Oz starts May 9th, rated PG, parental guidance suggested. [MUSIC] >> How can we make it a better world? >> I think we can make it a better world if we had peace among each other. >> Everybody needs to help their neighbor and then we'll spread from then on. >> I should do more. >> I can do more. >> I spend so much time on Facebook. >> How much time do I spend on Facebook? >> Probably more than I should be spending. >> I would definitely give back if I could find the time. >> Now you can help others just by playing a game on Facebook. It's called A Better World. Share your hopes and dreams. Do good deeds. Make a difference and have fun. Become a BetterWorldian. Join a community where all deeds get rewarded. Log in today to find out how you can make a difference every day. >> For more information, visit Facebook.com\ABetterWorld. [MUSIC] >> This is BetterWorldians Radio with a family team of Ray, MarySue, and Gregory Hansell. To connect with the show today, please call us at 1-866-472-5788. That's 1-866-472-5788. You may also send us an email to radio@betterworldians.com. Now, back to BetterWorldians Radio.

Gregory Hansell
Hi, Bob, this is Greg.

Bob
Hi.

Gregory Hansell
You know, I know it's been 24 years since Peter Drucker published his book, Managing the Nonprofit Organization. I know that he wrote that largely in inspiration the work that he did with you at the Leadership Network. And in that book, he writes that nonprofit institutions are central to American society and are indeed its most distinguishing feature. And I wanted to know first, do you still find that to be true today?

Bob
Absolutely and more so, but it's not always done that way is what I'd say. As I've said earlier, that survey says that government and then business is in the middle of that and we've got a business environment where the leading bank just paid a fine of $14 billion for fraudulent behavior during the real estate bubble that happened a few years ago. So we could use more people thinking and functioning for others.

Gregory Hansell
Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. You know, something that you mentioned during the break and I wanted to bring up again on the air is that Peter Drucker wrote in that book I was just talking about and let me quote, "That the nonprofit institution neither supplies goods or services nor controls. It's product is a changed human being. Their product is a cured patient, a child that learns, a young man or woman grown into a self-respecting adult, a changed human life all together." What do you think about that? Do you think that's the case?

Bob
Well, let me answer that this way. When I got pretty fully devoted to the social sector, I found it harder to keep score than my cash flow or, you know, bottom line stuff. So what I decided to do was to build what I call a book of days and I suggest this for you or anyone, where you just keep artifacts usually a picture or an email or something of people that write me and say, "I read your book. I changed my job and here's what I'm now doing as a result of that." And that's basically my treasure in heaven and it's not measured in money, it's measured in a human life that is turned toward serving others.

Gregory Hansell
What do you think are some of the unique challenges in changing lives and serving others today?

Bob
Well, this is another Peter expression. He said to me, well, once or twice, "The day that a business begins to be run for the benefit of the insiders and not for the benefit of the customers is the day that business begins to die."

Gregory Hansell
Yeah.

Bob
And the same is true of churches. And the same is probably true of hospitals and all kinds of things. And it's a real temptation to manage by power or manage by celebrity or by compensation. To manage for the people you're serving, Peter said to me that the same is true for nonprofits as for profits. That was one of his major discoveries in mid-life himself. He learned the ways of the world through business, but he practiced really the last maybe half of his work had more to say about managing nonprofits than it did for profits.

Gregory Hansell
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You know, in addition to some of those challenges that I think changing lives face today, I wanted to talk a bit about what I think maybe are some of the unique opportunities for changing lives today. I saw in an article recently that you described yourself as a social entrepreneur and, you know, coincidentally A Better World and BetterWorldians Radio are social enterprises. And for our listeners who may not know, social enterprises are double bottom line companies, you know, for profit organization who structure their business model around doing good in the world. And I was just curious what you think about social enterprises and their unique approach, you know, really trying to blend the for profit world in the nonprofit world to kind of get a best of both worlds.

Bob
Well, I did that for 18 years. I didn't sell my company. I mean television was booming and so was cable television and I took the money afterwards and put it into the second half things that I worked on. It says in the bible that all of us have a mission that's kind of wired into our being and most people don't know what that is. But as to money, money is -- I mean you have to have money to get anything done. But it's a means to an end. It's not the end itself.

Gregory Hansell
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Well, actually I noticed that in Drucker and Me, that you say that you're starting your third career as an encourager and you were just talking a second ago about people's callings. I love how you said, to quote from your book, "That their callings can follow them like an accusing shadow if they're kind of not living up to that call."

Bob
Yeah, and for those that are biblical, either the early pages or the late would find King David saying I think it's in Psalm 136 that "all of this is programmed into someone when he or she is in his mother's womb." However, it doesn't mean that you have to do that. There's a destiny there that's waiting and the way you get at it is a lot more like just archeology or a way of getting rid of all the noise in your life and getting connected to what you do best in the world and what ignites your passions.

Gregory Hansell
Mm-hmm.

Bob
And the third one of that trilogy that was conceived by Jim Collins, is what makes your economic engine work. So that's probably more the answer you were looking for. You can't do without it, but it is a means and not an end.

Gregory Hansell
Mm-hmm. You know, I noticed that again in the book that you talked about people really want their lives to count, but there's two things that they lack. You know, one of those is clarity about their calling and, you know, what would you tell the listeners at home in order to help them find clarity on their calling?

Bob
We have a program in Halftime that is a two day program that more or less has that as its central theme and we find that in about 80 percent of the cases, people don't have a clear idea what their mission is and in two days, they can have at least a pretty close approximation of what that is. And what really made that work though was we've redesigned it where each person or each group and each individual person has access to a coaching person who, if anything else, just listens to them and asks them questions. So anyway, it's a big part of what we do. We use gallant strength finders as a way of starting the conversation and lots of whiteboard where we ask people what they feel called to do.

Gregory Hansell
Mmm. Now I know that the other thing that you say that people lack in wanting their lives to count is encouragement. And you wrote in Drucker and Me that encouragement is a mix of permission, acknowledgement, applause, and accountability. Could you talk about your role as an encourager these days?

Bob
Well, I think what I'm going to do as, you know, my terminal work is I've started calling it Bob, Inc. So you just put your name in there and listen to this. I have three associates and our job is to find the islands of health and strength and to encourage them in their work. Sometimes financially, but that's not the main point. We just have their intentions and their goals in mind and do everything we can to get a book written for them because that's not easy to do, but it's doable for most anyone really. Or to find the right people to be associates and things of that nature. I hope I'll die with my boots on as they say in Texas in doing just exactly what you said.

Gregory Hansell
What do you hope that people take away from your book, Drucker and Me? If there's one thing that they take away, what would that be?

Bob
That's almost hard to say. I think the one thing they'll take away is a relationship. I think they ought to expect to read about a young man who is 32 years old and had the burden of building a big company and another man 30 years older of European descent. One thing about Peter is that he was for the social thing that I was doing and that's what we talked about. And I would be thrilled if most of the people or some of them will take away what my friend from South Africa did which is that he said, "For the first two pages or chapters, I was reading my book and for the rest I was reading" He meant my book, me. " the rest I was reading my book" that was like or appeared with an audience with Peter Drucker. So when you read the book, I'm just a surrogate.

Gregory Hansell
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Well, we have about two minutes left. And I want to ask you a version of a question that I ask every week to every guest at the end of our show. I wanted to quote again from Drucker and Me when you mentioned that both you and Peter believed that there was a better way, nobler goal, a higher calling for all of us. And I wanted to ask you, how do you hope that the things that Peter Drucker taught you and what you're doing with Drucker and Me and the institutes and everything you're doing can help to make the world a better place?

Bob
Well, just read the book and you answer Peter's question and I, of course, use my experience in being the recipient of that. The other thing would be I'd encourage anyone to find a mentor because not all of us see things in the same way and you always see things better in a caring relationship with somebody else that can feed back to you and as they say in the military, you've got their back. So find and be ambitious in finding the right mentor to help you out. I think people would be shocked, as I was. I mean shocked with who they can actually have for a mentor. I reached pretty high on that. I did that and I think you'd be amazed at who's willing to help you do what you want to get done.

Raymond Hansell
Well, certainly that was your experience, Bob. You certainly knocked and the door was open for you and now that you are offering that same kind of advice and counsel to others. For all of our listeners out there, Bob Buford really is a true BetterWorldian in just about every sense. He really picked the burden of taking a business and carrying it forward and in the process, made the transition from somebody who was a business leader to somebody who's now moved to more of the spiritual side what he can do to make a difference in the people around him. So if you're interested, we encourage you to be interested. Please find about more about Bob Buford and his book, Drucker and Me. Please go to druckerandme.com. Bob, we'd like to thank you for joining us on BetterWorldians Radio today. Thanks a lot, Bob.

Bob
Thank you.

Gregory Hansell
Thank you, Bob.

MarySue Hansell
Thanks, Bob.

Raymond Hansell
For our listeners, please join us next week on BetterWorldians Radio when we'll be talking to Danielle Gletow, the founder of One Simple Wish, a nonprofit that is brightening the lives of children in foster care and at risk youth one simple wish at a time. We have an excellent lineup of guests in the coming weeks and if you know an unsung BetterWorldian who would make a great guest on our show, please send us an email at radio@betterworldians.com. Once again, thanks everyone for joining us today, for listening. You can join the BetterWorldian community at betterworldians.com. And until next time, as I say each week, please be a BetterWorldian. [MUSIC] >> Thank you again for helping make the world just a little bit better this week. Please join your hosts, Ray, MarySue and Gregory Hansell next Thursday at 11:00 a.m. Eastern time, 8:00 a.m. Pacific on the Voice America Variety channel. We hope we've inspired you to do one small thing to help make a big difference. Join us at BetterWorldians.com to tell us what you've done to change the world. [MUSIC]